Gavin speaks!
"My God I've got to get some!!"

A sunny springtime Sunday afternoon in April 1999 and in one of Watford's best loved drinking holes, The Flag & Firkin, we find Gavin talking about his favourite subject (himself) over beer and cigars with longtime Secrets friend and associate Pete Curtis.

Left: Gavin live at The Orange, Kensington, June 1997

Pete Curtis: So Gav, how the devil are you?

Gavin: Battered and bruised I think! Suffering the after effects of Paintball!

PC: So no hangover then?

G: Well, if getting shot in the head counts then I suppose so! Certainly feels like one!

PC: So you're counting bruises?

G: Yeah...it's a painful process and it's certainly not getting better with age that's for sure! I had a difficult day yesterday...combat conditions in the field...I try to avoid it wherever possible!

PC: So that's the closest you're going to get to the real thing is it?

G: I should certainly hope so!! I certainly didn't like being shot!

PC: So how rock 'n' roll are The Secrets? Are you party animals or couch potatoes?

G: It depends which one of us...me I guess I'm 50% couch potato and 50% party animal...and if you asked each one of us who was the party animal we'd probably each say that somebody else was. But if you look at Neil, he's quite a bouncy character, Rich is quite quiet and Simon...well Simon's on another planet altogether!! So I'm somewhere between those three I think...that's pretty much us.

PC: Have you decided what you're going to do for the millennium yet?

G: Well it probably won't be in this country. I think I may be going over to Holland or Belgium or somewhere like that where I can see things in without having beer cans thrown at me!! I haven't really given it enough thought yet but I will do something to mark the occasion...passing out will be involved I imagine!

PC: After how long?

G: After probably about five past twelve!!...Well you know, start the millennium as I mean to continue! It's a strange occasion though...one to get the head around...

PC: Is it just another day to you?

G: I think so but everyone tells me it's not. I think there's money to be made if you think that it's not just another day. But it will probably feel like just another day...but that's presuming we haven't all been blown to bits as Nostradamus predicts!

PC: (Laughs) Pessimistic!

G: Well you know, always look on the bright side of death!

PC: So tell me, four or five years in and The Secrets keep on keeping on...

G: (Interrupts) I don't think we've figured out how to give up yet! I think we are still too addicted.

PC: So what keeps you together?

G: Blind stupidity half the time! But I think generally, what else would we do? We started out very much as a band out to have fun but then I think over those years we became so much involved with what we were writing becoming more and more to do with what we were living that that is the means of expression through which we live our lives. So really I don't think there's a chance of us splitting up for a long time because right now it's the most expressive thing that each of us does...so it's fairly much being addicted to it! Yeah, it's beginning to feel like quite a while we've been together but with each new occasion and each new venture it adds a new element so it feels very good.

PC: What's the closest you've come to splitting up?

G: I can think of three or four occasions and generally for different reasons. I think a couple of years back we were in quite serious crisis because Simon and Rich had fallen out quite severely over personal matters. And then other things since then when people weren't contributing in the way that they had before and I think those kinds of things lead to quite a destructive climate. But for the moment that's absent...I'm not saying that it won't come again: we seem to go through a yearly cycle of having a big bust-up argument, narrowly avoid it and then get back to being best chums again! But right now it's great and everyone's getting on better than ever I think.

PC: So you feel you're perhaps stronger for having been through those difficult situations?

G: Definitely. I think in our case we are very much more than just friends because in some ways we are so involved in each other's lives that it's not exactly a friendship thing...it's not a question of us wanting to to see each other all the time; it's more that we have to see each other all the time! In my case I get on absolutely fine with all of them but I know that there are relationships in the band which aren't so good but they stick together because of the band...and for some reason the band is the binding factor. It's the number one ambition for all of us so I don't think any one of us would want to kill the baby... I don't think we've figured out how to walk away from it yet. There are lots of things that have happened which for some people would have been too much and other bands would have split up over them, but with us there's this unswerving self-belief I think...plus we really still enjoy what we do so I don't see any point in trying to kill it! And I think that's what all of us would say at the moment.

PC: So given that you feel stronger as a band, how do you feel you've matured musically over this period of time? Where do you think was you're starting point and how far from that have you moved over the years?

G: I think you have to look at the writing mainly because when we started we took to the band a lot of songs written prior to us being in the band...we all brought our individual elements to it: Rich had a bunch of songs, so did I and so did Simon. So with these three different backgrounds you immediately had this broad spectrum of different influences. So our early songs sounded quite eclectic I think: one song would sound extremely heavy, another one very poppy and another one very melodic. Now since being in the band we've learnt more to write together and what works well for our playing. So, particularly since Neil joined a couple of years ago, we've very much written towards our strengths and the sound of the band has definitely changed: it's become perhaps more of a bullish sound. So whereas when we started we were very much finding our way and had a lot of great half-ideas with a lot of good little tunes, as a whole package of a band we hadn't figured out what we could and couldn't get away with. So right now our process is to write using the best of what materials we've got. If you compared a song we write now with a song from back then it would definitely sound quite different...it might not have the youthful quirkiness of times past but it will be a lot sleeker with a better thought through and better composed kind of sound. Also in tone generally the song have become quite a lot heavier and quite a bit darker. This comes again from experiences within the band and generally if there is a 'down' time we try to turn it to our advantage but getting some good out of it and writing a song...so I think that's the way that's worked.

PC: You say you're songwriting process has changed that in the beginning you started with a collection of songs that each individual had brought to the group...so who brings what to the songwriting process now? How has that changed over time?

G: I think it's kind of lopsided now...whereas to start with we were very conscious that everyone in the band would have an equal say and, as you say, one person would have a song almost written to completion and the other two would add their contributions, but essentially it would still really be one person's song...although we've always maintained to the public that all Secretsongs are written by all three of us (or four of us now). These days I think because perhaps the more experienced members of the band realize what works best for us and what works for the band the songs generally tend to come more from those people, by whom I mean mainly me and Simon...because we've been in it the longest. That's not to say that Rich and Neil don't have a contribution - they do...they make a very very big contribution and certainly they both have very strong opinions - but right now I think the songs come from the people who have perhaps the clearest view of where the band can go...and I think everyone would admit that so it's nothing detrimental to the other two. For example, for songs we write at the moment, maybe I'll come up with some words and a bassline and Simon will get hold of that very early on and we'll record it round at his and it will mushroom out of that...Rich and Neil will hear their lines potentially in what we've recorded and then they'll add their bits to it; so eventually it does become a four way contribution. That's not to say it's not democratic...if anyone had an idea we would do it: Neil in his time in the band has really grown and grown on the songwriting front. He's never given us a whole song in the same way as the rest of us used to but he has given us elements we can use...and Rich still...Rich has always contributions to make although I think right now his main aim is to perhaps re-establish himself in the band because having been the bass guitarist for the first couple of years and now being a guitarist he has had to re-invent his own contribution: that's his priority and I think he's doing really well. So I think that's how the dynamic has changed a bit...that's not to say it will always be like that, I mean who's to say how it will go...eventually I'm sure everyone will have an equal say as much as possible but right now it does tend to be me and Simon who have the overview.

At this point the conversation is paused for a short while whilst supplies of beer and smokes are topped up. As cigars are quietly enjoyed, the subject deviates to Cold War conspiracy theories and both interviewer and interviewee speculate that the 1962 Bay of Pigs incident (when the USA averted a planned attack on Cuba in the face of a Soviet armada sailing it's way) all happened because President Kennedy liked Havana cigars too much and wouldn't bomb their manufacturers...

PC: So Kennedy's soft on cigars then?

G: Certainly was!

PC: Not like Clinton.

G: No, Clinton's quite hard on lot's of things...especially his staff.

PC: Anyway, to continue where we left off, I know recently there was some indignation in the band about a Cure comparison that cropped up in the NME...would it be fair to say that you kind of wore your influences on your sleeve in the early years?

G: (Laughs) I think so...I have to admit on this one I'm not really the one who's got the problem with this...I'm not ashamed of who I like, put it that way! I admit, I'm a big Cure fan...I love The Cure...and other bands. It's only natural I think that when a band starts to try and adopt and nick little things from the people you're most influenced by. In our case I think there perhaps was an element of inexperience there and, yeah, I'm sure we have all copied bits and pieces: me and Simon were both into The Cure and so we took bits of that band...but Rich as well: Rich is the Beatles fan to end all Beatles fans and he wore his mop-top right through the worst of times!!...and as for Neil...well we won't go into his influences because it's just embarrassing!!!

(Laughs all round)

PC: So what are you listening to these days? You're saying some people are ashamed of their influences...you're not a closet Céline Dion fan are you?!!

G: (Heartily)...Only in my weaker moments if I may quote Céline herself!!...No, I'm not a closet anything!! I think I listen to perhaps the broadest range of music out of anyone in the band. My range of what I listen to right now can go from anything from Massive Attack and Portishead right through to Depeche Mode and some real hardcore eighties rubbish I think!! I don't really mind anything as long as what I'm listening to has a certain degree of integrity about it and I really don't like listening to 'manufactured' music...I pretty much despise nearly all Britpop bands because I think they've ripped off just about all that's been available to them to rip off.

PC: Don't you think that maybe Britpop was a media invention anyway?

G: I think that probably it was...but in the first couple of years you saw a number of bands literally copying one another and it became very gratuitous and no one outside this country actually gave a shit about it. If you're looking at great movements in the history of pop I'm sure Britpop will go down the toilet as pretty much nothing I think. So I really wasn't into that but other than that I've got extremely broad tastes; I like things orchestral, I like things slushy and I like really heavy music as well...so I have all kinds of different influences. But if you're coming down to favourites then at the moment I like Garbage a lot, I like Radiohead a lot...I think The Cardigans' album is brilliant, Massive Attack too.

PC: You kind of pre-empted my next question in a way. I was going to ask you when you are listening to new music what do you look for? What is it that turns you on about a band given that, as you say, you have pretty eclectic tastes?

G: Mmm...the element of surprise I think. It doesn't have to be a band...any music that makes you're ears prick up and make you think 'oh my God...wasn't expecting that!' and brings something new to you're experience of life generally is to some extent valid. I think that's where dance music has probably got most going for it because it can bring in so many different genre from round the world because it's not necessarily all about melody and singing. In this country particularly there is a concentration on the vocalist but that's only one element of the music...whereas I think with someone from the continent or wherever, their reaction is to a band is rather more to the whole package. We do have a tendency over here to idolize frontmen and frontwomen and that leaves behind what music is all about. I went to see the Fun Lovin' Criminals last Monday and they had a group supporting them called the Indian Rapeman, who I think have got their first album coming out soon, and they had all kinds of things in addition to drums and guitars like a DJ and some guy in the middle playing sitar!...and it was one of the most mixed up and industrial things you ever heard but these things are good because they bring new elements to music. One danger for guitar-orientated music generally is that it can be viewed as being very static, and I think there is still a place for guitars in pop music but all the time people need to bring new elements in otherwise you might as well just listen to the 'old classics' all the time...why do the same thing twice? I think Elvis Costello put it quite well when he said that most pop music is other people's music played badly!...and I think that's very much in evidence in Britpop.

PC: But he's very long in the tooth and his career has had so many ups and downs...

G: Yeah well I can relate to that!

PC: So given that The Secrets are a guitar-driven band and you talk about 'the element of surprise' how do you incorporate that into the group? Can you see a situation arising where you might bring in samples and elements of dance into what you're doing?

G: Absolutely! This comes back to us writing towards our strengths and when you say that we are a 'guitar-driven' band that's true but only to the extent that guitars are what two of us play. But we don't necessarily start out by thinking that we want to come out with a 'guitary' sound. Generally in my case I write very much towards atmosphere and mood and the guitar is just the tool with which we try to conjure that up. Particularly in Simon's case - but also with Rich as his involvements on the guitar side have increased - he can generate a huge number of different sounds out of his setup some of which are almost unrecognizeably guitar and I think you can definitely hear that in the music we are recording right now and over the last year. Whatever instrument fits the mood of what we are trying to get across, then that's what it will be played on. We have tried to introduce rather more in the way of keyboards into the live show these days and certainly on the recording side we are using way more keyboards than we used to. Also I'm interested in bringing programming into the drums just because it's a new element and half the game in this business is to sound original and different. I don't think we'll get anywhere if we just peddle out exactly what's expected of us all the time. I think we've still got a few tricks up our sleeve which people will be surprised by!

PC: Can you see any problems with getting those ideas over to the other guys in the band?

G: No, because I think we are all in agreement about it. As I mentioned we all have quite different tastes, but at the same time there is a certain common ground and there are certain things, certain bands that we are all into; we all went to see Garbage recently and in their case they are a very industrial kind of pop band and that's very much the way I think we would like to go...and, like them, we will introduce sampling or whatever fits the bill to get the sound right. Sometimes I get quite annoyed because we are limited by having just four people and I think there's a lot of potential, particularly in the way we write...I can always hear loads of different lines going on in songs most of which just can't be played live...hopefully we'll get those across in the recordings. But it's a very difficult process because a band can be quite a limiting thing I think, but hopefully we'll grow all the time and will get new sounds into the band as often as possible.

PC: You have three collections of songs out at the moment?

G: Well we are just about to bring out the third.

PC: So you're working on the third?

G: It's at the moment being recorded. We had two cassette albums in years gone by which sold quite well, so we are just about to bring out a third. But they're mainly for selling after gigs and things and each one has a different identity I think: as I mentioned the first one was kind of songs written before the band which got played by the band and sort of introduced us to each other...I think the second was very introspective and quite reflective...and these days it's getting quite aggressive and the third collection I think will be quite a surprise to a lot of people who thought they knew what The Secrets were about...it'll be a shot in the arm to ourselves as much as to anyone else! We are recording it at the moment and I'm very pleased with the way it's sounding.

PC: Which of the songs means most to you personally?

G: (Pausing for thought) Ooh, I don't know, it depends on the day...

PC: Ah!

G: (Gathering his thoughts) Depends on the mood...I'd have to say there are probably three or four songs from any period that I will always want to play: Let It Go is definitely one because I remember how I was at the time and how we were too, it's like an old photograph and it's really really good...Glove Puppets, Lies & Unconsciousness (that's a new one) and It Could Be You...but then again there are other songs which just rekindle some really nice memories; I think How Does It Feel..? is one because it's such a good concert song and I always love playing that. But I love them all for different reasons; it doesn't matter where the idea came from or who wrote them I think they've all got a special place in my memory. But right at the pinnacle there are these three or four which are just that little step up for me personally.

PC: If memory serves, you don't include any covers in your set. If you were to do so, what would they be?

G: You are probably speaking to the one wrong person in the band about covers, because I...hate doing cover versions!! Generally watching other bands doing a cover version of a song I like drives me insane most of the time so I'll try not to do that to someone else...I much happier driving people insane listening to our songs than other people's songs! But I don't know...I think if we were to do a cover it would have to be of a song that we all wanted to do and I can think of songs which we've done which have satisfied that quite well. We did a version not too long ago of Tomorrow Never Knows by The Beatles which was good because, although it's a very old song, we played in a very zippy kind of way and it was very enjoyable. Then there are other songs which we a re just really good at playing like Unbearable by The Wonder Stuff and that's just fun as well but it would be nice to do a song that we all really liked like; maybe a Garbage song or another band we've all responded well to like Crowded House who were another band that we all liked...we could do that but I'd much much sooner stick to my own stuff. It's like that line in "Ed Wood" when Orson Wells says "why spend all your life chasing someone else's dreams?"...that's my thinking anyway.

PC: Yeah, you'd rather nail your own colours to the mast.

G: Too right...I'll go down with my ship thankyou very much!

PC: You mentioned earlier about the change from the first collection of songs to the album that you did in that the darker side of the band started to come through. How do you manage to square that with people's general perception of you as a pop act?

G: Well, Rich has for a long time been really into the idea that you can dark and moody lyrics and play them to a really upbeat and poppy song or the reverse; you can have quite a dour sounding song but have actually quite uplifting lyrics. For instance, if you listen to Just For Me for which Simon wrote the words, those are some of the most selfish icy words you can write, but they are sung over one of the most upbeat, poppy ho-down kind of songs you can ever imagine. The opposite of that is a song like maybe Inside which is quite sombre in tone I think, definitely very reflective minor key stuff, but has what I think are quite uplifting and self-confident lyrics. Certainly in the second collection we did there are a number of instances where we are definitely playing songs very much about what we are feeling deep down but there are just enough little key elements to keep people interested. It's always a bit of a balancing act between what we are really into against what people will really respond to I think...although I think that generally if you're not pleasing yourself you haven't got a chance in hell of pleasing anyone else and with everything that we've ever put out we've tried to have this benchmark that we really would choose to go out and listen to and buy it ourselves. There's a certain amount of integrity at stake: whenever you put a song out you should always be able to say that this really is about what you are and I think that certainly is in evidence in the second collection even if it is a bit more introspective.

PC: Are we going to see more of that in the forthcoming album?

G: The forthcoming one is kind of a continuation of what we did before although we've sharpened it up a bit more...we've 'butched-up' a bit!!

PC: (Laughs) You're working out now!

G: Yeah...working out how to be in a band after all these years! No, but I think whereas the one before was a bit wallowing and maybe a bit self-pitying at times, I think this one comes out with a lot more venom. I think some people are going to listen to this and not like what they hear because it could be about them basically! There are much more direct references to problems we've all gone through so I think it's much more of an angry record than the previous one...a bit more of a 'look what you've done to me!!" scenario. It's almost in a musical sense meant to get to people on a very vicious level, and that's where we've gone. I mean we started out with a set of songs that were very inoffensive I think, but now we've learnt not to be afraid of offending people!

PC: So you're not too concerned about alienating pockets of fans?

G: No no! I wouldn't say necessarily that these songs are aimed at fans in terms of negativity at all. But basically you can't please all the people all the time and if we maybe lost one or two people because they didn't like what they heard and didn't think it was 'us', I'm sure we'd also gain a lot of people because the world's a big place with people into lots of different kinds of music and I think when people hear something that's a bit more aggressive, some of them will respond to it and others won't like it, it's just the way it goes but that's how we are at the moment. There's no point just peddling out 'we are a guitar pop band, we are going to play guitar pop because that's what works'...we're certainly not of that mentality at all because I don't really mind. I mean we've had times around here when we've been really popular and other times when we've been dead unpopular as well...I think we're somewhere in between those two at the moment. But ultimately you've got to please yourself I think because I'm not doing this for anyone else, I'm doing this blatantly for me. I also care very very much about the other three as well so as long as they're getting enjoyment out of it and definitely as long as I'm getting enjoyment out of it then that's the starting point...and hopefully other people will 'dig it' too!!

PC: It has been said that in performance, quite perversely for a group generally perceived as a pop band, you can a actually be quite aloof.

G: Yes.

PC: Firstly, a - are you aware of it, b - is it justified or do you think maybe you're just misunderstood?

G: I think there's a small degree of misunderstanding but generally I'll accept those kinds of criticisms because you're dealing with people who are perhaps themselves quite aloof. I think it's a problem we've had because other people have said to me that we don't always get across our individual personalities in the band when we are onstage as much as we do when we are in conversation and that I take as a problem. So recently we have tried a number of things to try to engage the attention a bit more and try to build up our actual stage setting...we've brought in some little gimmicks like a big banner at the back and large white drapes across the stage. Then myself, I have tried to bolster my stage presence up a bit by putting on a bit of make up and so on...

PC: I was going to ask where that came from?!!

G: Where that came from?... general sense of feeling unnoticed I think!

PC: (Laughs) It's a drummers lot!

G: Damn right! Hello, it's me!! I'm here, I'm here!! No ironically I think out of all the people who could handle stepping out and being most animated onstage, unfortunately it's me who is stuck at the back! In many ways if I had the chance to run about the stage and be stupid I'd love to do it. Whereas I think Rich is a very shy character so he's got a natural boundary he's got to overcome but he works at it he really does. Neil is himself a very flamboyant character being a Performing Arts student and loves being the focus of everybody else's attention but he too has a boundary to cross because he has to establish himself as a good musician first, and he's doing really well but he's got his own little battle to fight and he's improving with every gig. Now Simon...Simon's a complicated one because he's got lots of different 'hats' to wear in the band: number one he's got to be seen as the focal point by other people and I know that he finds this a problem at times because when he's writing music which is extremely personal and looking into his own life a bit he maybe doesn't want other people poking their noses in...ironically you might say 'why be in a band then?' I wouldn't say that he's the most natural of performers but I would say that he works at his game and any kind of suggestion you'll ever give Simon about trying to improve his stage presence and aura he will take on board and he might go with it, he might reject it but he's always open to suggestions. I think that's what I admire about him perhaps the most, that he really will go with something. He's a trooper; he'll really try and try to get what he wants said said. I think that as a live act, we're always learning and right now I feel quite confident that what we have got is a more visually interesting setup than we've ever had. Hopefully hopefully we'll be getting better and better!

PC: And tell me about the silver trousers!

G: Silver trousers?! Well I saw Depeche Mode in September and Martin Gore was wearing silver trousers and I thought 'my God! I've got to get some!!'

PC: (Bursting out laughing) My God!!

G: Trouble is they blend in with all my hardware so people probably don't notice them except when I walk onstage...but they're fantastic really! Anything a bit more flamboyant in The Secrets I'm all for! It's good fun.

PC: So The Secrets go glam, huh?

G: Well you haven't seen my record collection!

PC: Down the years lots of bands have copped an attitude in order to raise their profile, boost sales and perhaps to engage a particular portion of the record buying public and galvanize their imagination and this has ranged from the style of the band and the way they look to the sharp end of political activism. I'm curious as to how close The Secrets come to having if you like a 'group manifesto'?

G: I think we are very very supportive of each other. We do a hell of a lot in in-fighting - not right now it has to be said - and there has always been an element of aggression between the four people, but that's the internal dynamic and we turn that to our strength. We're like a married couple basically and, as best we can, we keep that away from the watching eyes. What we try to do is turn this negativity into positivity and turn our problems into getting something back. If ever we are in a meeting where all four of us are present there will never be any disparity between us and I think we are like that at gigs as well. In any situation where all of us are present we will always try to give off an 'all for the cause' kind of thing...we all pitch in, we all help. You know, we've all got different views on things and we've certainly got different politics within the band, absolutely, but ultimately from my point of view I look at these three other people as probably my three closest friends I think...all in different ways: me and Simon have a very cerebral kind of relationship, very very close...Rich and me have always been really good buddies, always have been and he's a lovely guy...and Neil; he's just a sweet bloke, he's a very good lid on the pressure cooker if you like and much of the 'good karma' that is in evidence now has been down to him I think because he provides I think a good buffer between the rest of us. So we try to use our own dynamic between us as our strong point and we hope other people will see that...we probably want to say to the world that we're just four struggling boys! Four musicians who want to make this our lives' ambition and make something of it: very selfish I know but why not?

PC: Do you think there's enough of a concencus in the band that you could see yourselves getting involved in something like a Live Aid or a Unicef concert?

G: Oh absolutely! In fact, we've done stuff like that already...not recently but we did a whole series of gigs for Meningitis Research. But these things generally tend to get banded about through people we know and we are very much I guess a 'charity begins at home' kind of band. We've certainly done a lot of unpaid gigs - well we've certainly done a lot of unpaid gigs full stop - but unpaid in the sense that we are helping other people raise money for causes like recently we did a gig to help finance Neil's course's touring show at college. We are very much a band who if there's a cause near to us who we can help with we are very happy to listen to all ideas...plus I can never say no to a gig!

PC: It is hard to say no isn't it? So pop and politics...do you think they mix?

G: Not if you're The Levellers it doesn't!! (laughter erupts)...and certainly not if you're The Communards!

PC: There was that whole Red Wedge thing in the eighties with Paul Weller, Billy Bragg and The Communards...I think they were trying to raise money for Kinnock.

G: Well I totally sympathize with their motives...it's just it was God-awful to listen to most of the time!! I don't know, but Simon particularly tries to keep politics out of our music mainly because there is a difference in our views but we would quite happily fight the cause in unison for something we felt that strongly about. But most of our songs - because we are such self-important bastards basically - are about us and not about anybody else which is maybe why some people aren't interested because they don't want to hear about another person's problems all the time. But generally we'd all align ourselves with a cause that we all felt was just...I know right now we are all very concerned about the Kosovan crisis.

PC: Sure. You feel impotent watching it.

G: Definitely.

PC: You think 'what the hell can we do?'

G: It's very worrying in this day and age that there are still people about who think that upping and shifting people from their homes is acceptable behaviour...that sort of thing we are all quite shocked and upset about.

PC: So if the opportunity arose to do something that you felt was constructive, even if it were simply raising cash, you would help with it?

G: Definitely...and for other things like Aids Research we are all very happy to contribute to. Any kind of help for a cause which we are all agreed on we'd go for, definitely.

PC: One of the bands with the biggest political manifestos that are out there at the moment are the Manics but a lot of people are saying that they've sold out...have the Manics sold out?

G: I don't know if the Manics have sold out at all. I have a certain amount of sympathy with them because I think they spent their first few years vying for attention with other bands who were getting a lot more...hence their glam phase. Right now people might not feel happy having their politics rammed down their throats but if that's what they feel most strongly about then that's what they should do it; that's absolutely fine. I'm not really a big Manics fan myself, it's not really my kind of thing, but I never look at them and think they are a 'product' of something; a 'processed' kind of group or anything like that. Any kind of group that have integrity and whose general beliefs are in alignment with mine I'm very open minded to.

PC: (New subject - an abrupt change of tack) Is golf the new rock 'n' roll?

G: (Laughs)...Is golf the new rock 'n' roll?...Well, the new rock 'n' rollers are playing golf that's for sure! (Referring to the band-wide penchant for putting greens, sand-traps and buggies). Why did Simon let you in on this?

PC: Oh it's an open secret...no pun intended!

G: Well we do try and get a few holes in here and there...very badly I might add! We had a round about a week ago, me and Simon, and I was driving absurdly well - I usually can't drive (golf 'driving' not driving 'driving'!! -Ed) or play golf for toffee generally - but I kept hitting the people in front of us!...It was just us being disagreeable as usual!

PC: (Laughs) So you were hammered with a law suit?!

G: Well you've got to make waves somehow!

PC: GBH?!

G: Well it might as well be with a golf ball!

PC: GBG...Grievous Bodily Golf!!!

G: Certainly was in my case!

PC: So who's currently the best player in the band?

G: Oh Simon by several miles.

PC: Oh really?

G: Well he grew up in a well-to-do area which had a golf course right on his doorstep so I think he's naturally the most gifted in that respect...not in all respects I might add!!

PC: (Laughs) We'll not go into that here...that's not for public desemiation!

G: I should hope not! (Laughs) No...wait 'til I can make some money out of it; then it's for public consumption!!

PC: (Laughs) Ah yes!

G: ...Then I think I'm next best golfer but I think that's down to my Scottish roots really...you see you inherit golf clubs in Scotland!

PC: I guess!

G: Then it's really down to Rich and Neil to fight it out who's worst! (Pausing for thought)...it pretty much reflects the way the band is generally!

PC: (Laughs) So it's art reflecting life?

G: Well...golf reflecting gits anyway!

PC: On a different tack, you've worked a lot round the London circuit so you'll have encountered a lot of other bands whom you'll have played on bills with. Are there any bands out there who you think really suck?!...Or are there any other bands who you think you should tell your public to go and see right now because they're great?

G: The bands that suck are generally the bands who have been signed I think! I get absolutely irate generally with the absolute crap which gets in the charts which seems to get signed for no reason other than looks.

PC: Well we're talking Boy Bands and shit like that, aren't we? 'Cos that's a real bandwagon.

G: Mainly Boy Bands, but also other stuff as well...like I mentioned Britpop bands as well and there are just countless bands like that I hate.

PC: It's a bandwagon again.

G: I mean you're talking to the biggest anti-Oasis man in the whole of history I think! But more on our level, we've played gigs and gigs and gigs and there have only ever been a couple of occasions when I've seen another band at them which I have thought to be of interest. I don't understand how these bands can be motivated to write half the time because they sound absolutely dreadful with their drivelly sub-Smiths kind of music. This is what we try to avoid with a passion: I think we would all say that our songwriting is our biggest strength and we really try to add a dynamic to our songs that seems to be lacking from all of these other groups of a similar profile I think As I said, though, there were probably two or three occasions when there was another band on the bill who I thought were fantastic. I remember there was a group who played with us at The Orange called Trevaskis who I thought were really really good and they had an almost Celtic and atmospheric big old sound. Then there was a band called Wonderlust who were also at The Orange - they've been on Area 51, that cable channel - and they're kind of a pseudo-Skunk Anansie kind of thing...not really what all of us are into but I just thought they played absolutely fucking brilliant, and they deserve 'it'. Then there have been one or two other bands who have written a song which I thought 'God, I wish I'd written that! That was really good.' There was this band - I can't remember their name now - who played with us at the Trash Club last summer who had this one song and I still can't get the melody out of my head...if they're not careful, I'll nick it!!

PC: (Laughs) Well nick it before they get signed otherwise you're in trouble!!

G: Well all their other songs were crap so they probably won't! (That means they probably WILL!! - Ed) And then there was another band called Curtis funnily enough.

PC: No relation!

G: They were playing at the King's Head in Fulham and they too had this one song that I thought was outstanding...and that occasionally happens: one incident in a gig to which you think 'that really does deserve the works'. But very very seldom it happens that you see a band who you think deserve it. I remember back here a few years a go I thought Inertia were a very good band, maybe at times lacking precision on the songwriting side, but I think as a live band they were one of the real best and could have had a real justifiable right to get some attention.

Picture: Gavin live at The Rock Garden, February 1996. Photography: Wannes DeConninck

PC: I think they came close.

G: I'm sure they did. Then also Dan out of The Plant, I see him as being a good songwriter these days: I don't think they've got it down to perfection just yet but I do see them as a band who have a chance to take things onto a good level. But it's hardly ever happened in all the years I've done this where I've looked at another band and thought, 'God, I'll give up now!!'...Hardly ever. I probably should have done...I don't know.

PC: Have you got any amusing anecdotes that you can share? Things that have happened to you? You've done a lot of gigs so things must happen so does anything stick out in your mind?

G: (Reflecting on happy times)...I think punching Johnny Menswe@r was my crowning moment!!

PC: (Laughs) That kind of pre-empts my next question which was to do with brushes with stardom...I guess you killed two birds with one stone there!!

G: Well I can't claim credit for killing their career but is interesting to note that things kind of went down for them after that!!

PC: I think a lot of people would have liked to punch Johnny Menswe@r I have to say!!

G: There was also the Young Pop Act thing which was sponsored by Chiltern Radio in the 'way back when' days. It was about the biggest gig we'd ever done - to about a thousand people in this big sports hall arena thing - and we were very very nervous when we went on and Simon snapped his strings in the first song and having not brought a replacement guitar he had to play the rest of the gig on his acoustic...but we went on and came second in the whole thing which was unbelievable! That was quite an absurd occasion! But there have been lots and lots of little things that have happened at gigs...most of the time I get the piss ripped out of me for my attires! (Responding to a laughing interviewer)...Well, it's cheap entertainment!

PC: What's the weirdest gig you've ever done...the strangest?

G: It had to be this social club up in St. Albans and I don't think they'd realized quite who they'd got in...I think they were expecting the King Singers or something!!

PC: Shock! Horror!

G: ...And in walked The Secrets! Yeah but that Chiltern Radio thing was definitely weird considering that we played so badly and sung absolutely dreadfully - I know, I heard the tapes afterwards - and we missed out on winning the whole thing by just one vote!! It was just unbelievable. Also it wasn't exactly a gig but, you'll remember this, that Floorspots cable TV occasions (our interviewer's own group, Wing & A Prayer had also appeared on the bill)...those were quite strange: all in one take filming and that extremely forgetful presenter...what was her name?

PC: Oh I've completely forgotten...

G: Oh yeah, Pamela, that was it. You've conveniently forgotten! Selective Memory Syndrome I think he's suffering from, people!

PC: Well, I can always go back and look at the video.

G: Watch and weep! But it was very good fun...just one of those little moments. Also the Rainbow Festival a couple of years back was quite weird because that was Neil's first gig with us and I was just driving to it with him and we saw all these people streaming into Cassiobury Park...and he was absolutely pooing his pants!!

PC: That was a real trial by fire wasn't it?!

G: It certainly was, but he got through it but he only had a couple of songs to play on keyboards with us. We just thought, 'well, he's in the band now, let's get him to 'crack the boards' and see what it's like!' It just so happened that it was one of the bigger concerts we've done.

PC: You've seemed to pretty much take on the role of organizer and administrator in the band, correct me if I'm wrong here...

G: No, guilty as charged!

PC: What that means then is that you're in the front line when it comes to dealing with record companies, management companies and other various organizations and individuals...are you jaded and cynical yet?!

G: Jaded and cynical?! I'm particularly jaded and cynical with the London circuit and venues generally because they have a very conveyor-belt mentality towards getting bands in and putting on gigs. The first question they will ask is how many bods you can get into their joint and these are people who are meant to be promoters themselves who don't seem to want to do any work towards filling their venue and always expect a band to do all that for them...not that I'm saying that it's wrong to expect a band to try and pull a crowd - we certainly pull out all the stops when we've got a big gig on - but sometimes I find that ridiculous. Also I look in the charts at times and see what gets signed, and I absolutely weep at times because I know what it feels like to be in a proper group and, love us or hate us, we are a genuine band and there are not too many of those born every day I don't think...and when I look at bands who have got there on nothing more than seemingly futile reasons you do ask yourself well, 'why am I slogging away at this?'...and the reason you do slog away at it is that it is, as I say, an addiction and you can't get out of it. You'd have to undergo a serious life-change I think or have an operation on your brain or something like that! Sometimes I hate the fact that I'm in a band because it might stop me from getting on with other things in my life. But until the band has it's 'make-or-break moment' - which I don't think we've had yet - there's always going to be a sense of 'what if?' But, as you say, I deal with an awful lot of management agencies and things like that and it's amazing to see how many people are out to make a fast buck out of unsigned music...all those compilation CDs for which you get one cut on an album that has twenty other unsigned acts on it and you have to pay £200 for the privilege and it will never get heard anyway. These people just suck on your talent basically and so we try to avoid them as much as possible. Then also you have representation companies who take money from you to do some kind of service that you never know if they do or not...you see so many of those so I have a certain amount of weariness of that. So you just have to turn back to yourself all the time and just remember that you're enjoying being a musician and that's always the thing that can see you through...it's always nice to think you've got a couple of things going on; I mean, right now we've got a couple of good opportunities on to gain some extra exposure, but ultimately it has to come down to whether the band's any good or not, and whether you're enjoying it or not. That's always what we try to focus on and Simon's a very good one for that: he wants to get us sounding right before anyone important hears us. Sometimes we've gone into gigs or sent out tapes when we've really gone in half-cooked and known it really...and right now we are really trying to not do that. I remember when we just started we had another bass guitarist before Rich came on board and he very much wanted to rehearse and rehearse for ten months before we ever did a gig and me and Simon thought that was ridiculous. We wanted to be out there playing gigs to lots of screaming and adoring people as soon as possible!

PC: To start working on the knicker collection!

G: That's right! Absolutely...I know he has a pantry-full!

PC: (Laughs) We'll talk about it later!!

G: (Speaking up to the microphone) He buys them! HE BUYS THEM!!

PC: Swaps? So do you think you have developed a strategy now for dealing with these people?

G: Well we've learnt to talk the talk that's for sure.

PC: Have you learnt to spot the bullshit?

G: Definitely, a mile off.

PC: So you've got a pretty good sense of when people are leading you up the garden path?

G: Well I would say that whilst it's true that I do deal with the management side, when we've got a big fish on the table like a management agency with a lot of clout behind it - there's one of those right now actually - I make it my business to make sure that everybody knows about it and that everybody has an input on it. So if any correspondence comes my way I make sure that everybody in the group reads it and if we need a second opinion there's always people we can turn to. I've known bands who have albums out and yourself as well and other people I can turn to and just get an opinion off. So I'm always quite cautious about what we go for. That's not always been the case; I've often been the great optimist of the band who's gone with anything and like I said, never turned a gig down and we've ended up in the most absurd stupid situations -

PC: Yeah, weird gigs -

G:...when we just should have taken five and thought 'why are we doing this?' But that's part of the learning process. These days I'd hope that we are a little bit wiser and take the 'is this going to be money well spent?' kind of attitude. Then again on the flipside if you're going to be a rock 'n' roll band you've got to take a few risks and throw everything at the wind: that element has to be kept intact as well. So we've got to find a balance between taking risks and looking after ourselves...Simon could learn a few things about not falling out of trees and stuff!

PC: (Laughs) Well we are descended from the apes!

G: Well he descended all right!!

PC: (Still laughing) So you've learnt some lessons then?

G: Yeah! Keep Simon away from trees!!

PC: Have you got any hard-earned advice or lessons that you might pass on through these esteemed columns to any people who are starting up out there? Things to look out for or particularly avoid or whatever and what would you not do this time around if you had the advantage of hindsight?

G: Well it's actually about playing. I was talking before about that first bass player we had and he very much thought that you should rehearse and get your sound absolutely on the money before you take it anywhere and play to anyone...and we started out and played our first gig a little bit too soon I think and maybe for the first year I'd say - maybe for as long as that - we played gigs under-rehearsed. Now you can do that and it was good for us in that it gave us stage experience in difficult situations and we've been onstage in difficult moments where somebody would 'drop the song' or something like that.

PC: I think I mentioned in a previous article that I wrote about you that you were very much a band that was growing up in public.

G: Definitely...maybe that's been a fault because maybe sometimes people have gone away thinking 'well they were a load of shit' but at the same time it's made us very very strong because we've learnt our trade the hard way. So that's the first thing: maybe if you're just starting you should hold off and not be too eager to get yourself seen and get yourself right first. Alternatively you can do it our way and you'll take a few knocks but it does make you a very strong unit and we can take just about any criticism at the moment; I mean we've been called some horrible things at times but we are very strong and a very very good unit. We've had criticism in the press before as much as we've had positivity and we can wipe it off our backs...so this has been good training so that if we did make it we could wipe off such things and not let them stick. Then beyond that in the management side, which is perhaps where I've had a bit more experience, is being aware of when people are there who are just trying to make money out of you without taking you further. It's all right putting money into a venture if it's definitely going to have some kind of comeback but I'd say to anyone hold off putting money in until you can actually see where it's going and have some kind of proof for it...like you can actually pick a CD up in your hand or something. Also to be definitely very wary of a management agency who take on a stable of acts rather than just one band...I mean ideally we would want to be managed by someone who just dealt with The Secrets, although we had that situation once before and unfortunately the person in question was just not smart enough basically to take the job on. So it's a balancing act really. That's the beauty of it: there is no right and wrong. But in our case, now I think we've learnt to think a little bit more carefully about what we are doing: I mean, right now were not actually gigging quite as much as we used to be and that's quite a conscious thing because I think that you can make more inroads into the music industry by presenting decent recordings to it or making it look like you've got projects on...for instance, we are hoping to get a CD album out later this year and these kind of things. It doesn't always have to be playing live that opens the door...I mean, my God, how many Boy Bands and Stock Aitken and Waterman creations have ever played a real gig like we've done?

PC: Well absolutely! They've all relied on radio exposure or people seeing a video.

G: That's right. But that said there is an element of pot luck and maybe maybe you play the gig when the chairman of Island Records happens to stroll through and think, 'oh my God, they're good!'...but that's like winning the lottery, it's very uncertain. But we will always be a live act, we will always play gigs no matter how infrequently just because we need to keep our hand in and well, we like doing it. I mean, I know we've done gigs and we've not always been 'up for it', but by and large we always want to be playing concerts...I can think of some great times we've had and really enjoyed right throughout from the beginning to right now...some really good moments.

PC: So the bottom line for a new act is?

G: Is believe in yourself fundamentally and get you're own product right. Like I said earlier, you haven't got a snowflake's chance in hell of pleasing others if you're not happy with your own product. We've made the mistake at times of doing things specifically to please other people but right now we will not go back to that shit, I will insist on it...I will make enough of an argument in the band that it won't happen! Everything we do in the band should be for us first...and I think that's a good way to start. I mean, you can look at bands from all different genres - and I'm talking about the good ones -

PC: Whoever they are..?

G: Oh they know who they are - and ultimately the type of music they make is all about them. Most educated people know who they are!

PC: I think you're right!

G: So yeah, that's the first thing: remember who you are and what you're trying to say to the world...and stick to it; criticism is only criticism and it's only one silly fucker's opinion anyway!

At this point our interviewer realizes that he's dead thirsty again and rushes to the bar for another beer!

PC: So going on from that, have you talked about whether you would prefer signing for maybe a major label or an indite label or maybe a publisher? What kind of deal do you think you'd be looking for?

G: Okay, bottom line is we would sign to whoever would sign us at this point...and I know that sounds simple but basically we want to get cracking! Ideally though, there's a certain merit with sticking with a small setup because then at least you'll know everybody in the company, and you can perhaps maintain a little more control over your career.

PC: Sure, that kind of pre-empts me again. For many bands the idea of signing to a major label means that they have to give up a certain amount of autonomy whereas the general conscencus is that if you sign to an indite you are allowed a greater degree of control. Where would you draw the line?

G: Well I think basically songwriting is our whole raison d'etre...that's why we do it and therefore I think that anyone who put their oar into the way is composed for us had better have a fucking good argument why or else they're not going to be welcome. At the same time you don't want to take that attitude so much that you might be killing off your career potentially, so there's possibly a certain amount of arrangement we could take on board but in terms of actual songwriting?...This is perhaps the biggest sticking point and for this reason we've often had it recommended that we should try and find a publishing deal as the first step where the publisher would then go on and try to make money and sell our music to a record company. Unfortunately these days publishing deals aren't often offered in isolation...you pretty much have to go straight to the source and go to a record company. But right now we are pretty much avoiding record companies because we've heard from so many sources that without decent representation you're not even taken seriously...and so we are just trying to cut down the number of reasons why someone wouldn't sign us: we are trying to get recordings together which are as good as single quality so that people couldn't say stuff like 'well the drums were off on that' or 'the vocals aren't crisp enough' or whatever...we want to make our product as crispy clean as possible. Also we need as much help from within the industry as is possible like maybe a producer who's into us...I know Simon's uncle knows Stephen Street - Blur's producer - and why we haven't met him yet is a mystery to me 'cos I really want to push that: any kind of help from the industry.

PC: Maybe he's worried about band nepotism.

G: Possibly...I don't know!

PC: But I'm with you: any route you can take is legitimate game.

G: Yes. We will give anything a fair hearing and, like I said, we want to get cracking because we've got all these songs. It'll be five years this summer we've been together and that is a lot of songs!! Not all of them have made it onto these tapes of ours. There are many songs that me and Simon have put down on tape which are just kind of half ideas.

PC: Is that so? So you have your back pages?

G: (Defiantly) We have our arsenal of songs! Rich too...he's been a songwriter as long as he's been a guitarist (and that's since he was a teenager) so he's got lots of ideas...and Neil is growing into becoming a songwriter. It's getting to the point where we urgently need something otherwise we'll be in a real tiz when it comes to deciding what is put on our first album! This could be the biggest problem potentially! We'd have to be siphoning off some real gems.

PC: At this point it's a hypothetical question, but let's assume you've got your deal and have your first legitimate album release coming up - would you then go through The Secrets' back catalogue and go through the best of those songs and would you be happy to re-record them? Or would you go for a whole bunch of current new stuff?

G: Well there is that argument because it does keep the vibrancy of the band (pauses for thought)...and that is one to be taken seriously and top be honest, I haven't got the answer yet, I don't know but at the same time you must be aware that this might be your only album and there are songs that we wrote from years back which I still think are amongst the strongest we've ever done and you want to give each one of those a fair chance. So my hunch is that our first album would almost be a 'best of' basically.

PC: (Picking this up) Which you could polish off relatively quickly I would imagine.

G: Definitely, because of our confidence with playing them and this is where it's easier that going in and recording all new songs because say if we did a song like Glove Puppets or something - which has been around almost since the beginning - that's five years of playing that song and we obviously play it better now that we did then I think. So it would probably keep recording time down which is also always a concern because the whole deal about producing a first album is making it as cost-effective as possible I suppose so there is that element too. But we'd have to be careful that the songs we chose were reflective of our current mood because otherwise they'd sound very contrived. So there are good songs we wrote a long time ago that probably would not make it because they're not now reflective of the way we are. So it would be a very tough choice...a difficult call.

PC: And as we said, you're recording your third collection of songs as we speak. Are you quite happy with the way that's going?

G: Oh I love that, yeah! I think out of all of them for me personally, this will be my favourite collection. As I say there are songs from the first two I like, but as a collection in it's entirety, this is something you can listen to as a whole very much whereas the say, on the first collection - I've done it myself - I'll spool through to find the songs I like, this one you'll want to listen to as a whole; it'll go from here to here to here in a very ordered fashion. It probably doesn't boast as much diversity between the songs as the other two in that all of the songs sound maybe of the same ilk perhaps but that's good because it gives it the feel of being one collective piece I think.

PC: Does that maybe indicate that you've transcended your influences to create the sound that The Secrets were always meant to make?

G: Yeah I think so but, I should be honest, there are songs we are writing at the moment which are not for this. We are thinking about this as being a very specific kind of project.

PC: So there's a concept here?

G: It's almost a 'concept album' I suppose! But there are some really really lovely songs at the moment which are being played in rehearsal maybe in some ways a lot like songs that were being written a couple of years back in that they're very melodic and sweet on the ear...but they're not going to go on this one because this one isn't meant to sound sweet on the ear basically! This one's meant to be a bit of a difficult ride and you've got to be in a mood to listen to it...it's a 'het up' album basically...so that's the way this one's going. But whether or not this is the sound that we were always meant to make I don't know but it's the sound that I like making the most right now, put it that way...it's us sounding our best at the moment because we are the most confident playing theses songs and you can see it: the songs I'm referring to for people reading or listening to this are songs like The Next Big Thing, Violent Faces, Lies & Unconsciousness...those kinds of songs which are all in the live set at the moment...that's pretty much the sound of the new one and those tend to be the songs that we are playing the best at the moment and this will sound a very zippy kind of album I think. It's only got eight tracks on it whereas the others had I think fourteen and twelve respectively...this is a much more compressed 'shot in the arm' kind of thing and that's deliberate.

PC: It sounds like there's some judicious pruning going on.

G: Very much so and this is very much the way I've always wanted to work. Me and Simon have always visualized being in a band being something like this. We've chosen our direction for the moment are sticking with it at the expense of maybe some good things which can come back later. We are closer now to the kind of band that we always wanted to be in but who's to say that this is the sound that The Secrets were always meant to make...that's a different question I think. If you'd asked me three years ago what a quintessential Secretsong is I'd probably have said something like A Strange Place or Times Like These which are quite light and poppy in feel whereas now there's a grittier sound with a kind of ambient edge to it in an aggressive kind of way. That's kind of the way I always wanted to go so I feel - don't know about the other guys but I'm sure they're all pretty happy with things - right now music-wise I'm happier than I've ever been in a band...I'm getting more input now than I ever had and, like I said, in the beginning there was an absolute three way split in the band, but right now it just so happens that this is the time when I can flex my muscles a bit. So if anyone doesn't like this, I've got to hold my hand up and say 'sorry, that was me'...but I like it!...(effects Cartman accent) Screw you!!!

PC: (Laughs) So what's the recording process for you at the moment? How are you going about it? How have you put it together?

G: I suppose we started last summer. The songs we are talking about were written over a shorter period than the other two albums...pretty much ever since last Christmas they've been written. We went into a studio in Chiswick last summer to make a start -

PC: (Fondly reminiscing) Ah Chiswick...

G: A splendid little studio actually...a groovy little place. It was called Boom! Studios then, it's called Power Studios now, and we laid down the first three tracks -

PC: (To the studio proprietors) That's a free plug guys!

G: I know, I'm hoping to get a cheap rate, that's why I said it!! The bloke who was the engineer there was in a very kind of gothic group who'd had (effects Prussian accent) zome chart zuccez in Germany -

PC: They love that in Germany!

G: Yes, and it was very kind of appropriate for us because we were coming up with this butcher heavier sound and he knew exactly what we were trying to get. So we made a start with three tracks there; The Next Big Thing, Violent Faces and Turn and I came out of that with a real sense of positivity. For one, I think, it was the best account I've ever given on drums on a recording...because at times I've been questionable, I'll give anyone that! So I came out of that thinking that was a very good starting point and ever since then we've been recording pretty much non-stop other ideas for adding to this collection, and that's been using Simon's home studio setup - which is a wonderful tool we've got available to us - and right now we are just finishing the whole process off basically. I recorded the remainder of my drum tracks a couple of weeks ago, there's going to be quite a bit more in the way of programmed drums on there which me and Simon have had a big input on; and right now it's just a question of going through the motions. I think Neil's in tomorrow putting his final touches on, then Richie's adding his guitar bits...and then, as always, it's left to Simon to add the sweetening on - well he does way more than that I should say - but he's basically given this canvas from the rest of us so he'll add his vocals and also his guitar texturing and keyboards as well. There's still work for me to do: on all of the tracks I'm involved right through it but more in a producer's capacity where I'm monitoring everybody else's performances. As always with these collections it's very much a team effort and we all look out for what everyone else is doing because ultimately all our names are on it and this, let's not forget, is the first one with Neil on board. That is again where this one might sound a little bit different because his bass style is a bit different to Richard's: it's very close to the way me and Simon play bass because we kind of taught him so his is the kind of bass sound that we would naturally pick as well. So that's the way it's going. But hopefully in the next few weeks it should be done.

PC: Are we looking at having maybe a CD release this time?

G: Well hopefully yeah. Probably the way we'll start it is ,as always, press up a run of a few hundred cassettes...and they'll always sell really easily at concerts, through colleges and things like that and then then we also have the facility to press up small runs of CDs - Simon's got his own setup at home which can do that - so we'll do that to start with. But then hopefully as a separate project later in the year, I'm rapidly trying to get funding for it at the moment from institutions interested, our own CD album. It would be a different set of songs to this one.

PC: Like a 'best of' kind of thing?

G: Yeah, kind of like that and mainly for our own posterity so that if we all came to nothing after it was done, we'd at least have that to show for it and we've had good feedback from shops who'd be willing to stock it and radio stations who'd be willing to play cuts off it. That's my big aim for the year assuming nothing else happens of a grander scale.

PC: Well certainly a lot of your contemporaries are getting their material out on CD now.

G: Absolutely. That's another thing. You want to appear to be doing as much as you can to plug your band - this is, after all, our baby - it's something I personally feel really really jagged against when I see a band at a concert who have some little gimmick or something that we haven't thought of. I don't know how they could afford it but there was a band we were playing with in Camden who were passing out free CDs to all the audience and I was thinking, 'my God! How cn they do that?'...and I was feeling really envious of them as well; 'God I wish I could do that!'...because at least you're giving people something to take home. So I'm always looking for extra little trinkets that we can pass out...and I suppose the biggest thing in recent times is the website...and that's opened us up to a bigger audience as well because there's been quite a bit of interest in us from people living outside the area and in fact I've had some very good responses back off the website with people just wanting to know more about us. Hopefully we'll be able to get more and more music downloadable from it so people can hear us right round the world. So that's been the most significant development exposure-wise we've had in a long time.

PC: So The Secrets go global!

G: We've gone global! My words are now being read in Brazil I hope! Hola Brazil!!

PC: (Effecting latino accent) Hola!! Hello Brazil!! So have you written your first hit single yet?

G: (Laughing) I think I wrote that about five years ago! But no one's been smart enough to pick it up yet!

PC: Bastards!

G: Yes, they are all bastards to a man! But I think we write songs all the time which potentially could be very very sellable. Of any criticisms we've had I will never accept that we can't write a cracking good pop song. No one will be able to convince me otherwise and compared to all the other trite and shite that gets in the charts - (pauses for thought) I mean how the New Radicals managed it recently I do not know! - we can out-write any of them. Not that I like bringing competition into music but there sense of 'oh really??!!' I think we can always write a good pop song. Rich is our killer pop song writer if you want to know our responsibilities...

PC: He's written some of your catchiest numbers.

G: Oh he has and I'm sure he still can...I'm sure we all can...Simon, me and now Neil.

PC: Yes, that's not to denegrate any of the other members.

G: No, but in my opinion I think Richard's really really good at that...'cos he's that trivial!!

PC: So would you know then when it was time to quit the day job?

G: (Effecting a leery Mexican voice) When I see the good dollar come in!! When I think there's areal chance of making some kind of living out of it then that's the time and when my attention is needed more for the band and genuine things need doing like recordings that need producing, that will always get priority...so if my boss is reading this...sorry! Basically when the band is afforded the big opportunity that I hope we will be that's when my time gets devoted there totally...I sometimes get frustrated that I can't devote more time to it than I do...I mean opretty much every spare moment I spend doing something for the band: if it's not writing, it's working on my computer at home to print out flyers or be on the phone to a promoter about a concert or a management agency or something like that....I would happily do that twenty-four hours a day if I thought that it would get us into a higher stratosphere.

PC: So conversely...when would it be time to quit the band?

G: The time to quit the band is when I stop seeing that as being the most expressive thing I'm doing. The time to stop is when I'm doing stuff outside that band which is more interesting than the band...and that's a point I've never reached in all the years I've been in it...and I think that goes for everybody else. You know, we've all got other things which we do in our lives: I've potentially got a career in graphic design ahead of me, and Neil's a performing artist who would happily walk the stages of the West End and that kind of thing. Rich and Simon, music is obviously their number one thing but they've also got other things in their lives to think about as well. But right now for all of us that is our number one interest. Now if that changed it would probably be at least time to be handing each other our hats but also I think I wouldn't want to go on flogging it to death for years and years and years...and I think, for instance, if we got a really good opportunity thrown our way and we blew it, I would have to say well maybe this isn't meant for us...maybe we are not meant for this. But I don't think I've reached that point. I still have this unswerving self-belief that we are made of the right stuff to actually have a long term career because we write so much; we write and write and write and I don't think there's ever been a dip in quality or anything...I think we get better at it; we get better musicians certainly. But I think we get better songwriters, much as I've said all along that there are songs from way back that I really like, but whatever we do next is always going to sound a little bit better or a little bit newer obviously and a little bit fresher than what we've done before...and you can see that: the sound of the band has changed and it will change again I'm sure...we are not static...and that's another time we might stop is if we became static; trotting out the same formula all the time. I've got a real admiration for bands or artists who can take punches and change and grow...I think that's evident in my record collection.

PC: So you take heart from the experience of people like say, Sting or Annie Lennox who were knocking on thirty years old before they had their first real taste of success...or bands like Pulp who were together for fifteen or sixteen years before they had their first bite of the cherry?

G: Yes, and also bands as well who got signed quite early on but their profile remained very culty and low...REM, The Cure and these people too.

PC: Yeah, the long time building that they had...

G: Definitely. Yeah, I'm definitely in this for the long-haul; I'm quite happy to spend years getting it right whether that's in a signed or unsigned capacity. That said, like I said, if it looked like we'd overshot somewhere...I'd knock it on the head.

PC: So Gav, give me five words to describe The Secrets.

G: Um...talented...jolly...introspective...fucked-up...

PC: I guess that counts -

G: Well, it's hyphenated!...and worth-it!!

PC: I guess that counts too. Finally, have you got any message for the army of The Secrets' fans out there who are going to be logging on and checking this out?

G: Just keep watching because we'll always have something new to give people, we'll always have something new to show people...and they'll always be surprised by us I think...just when you thought you knew us something will change...something will happen!

PC: (Looks at his watch) Time for a beer?

G: Always time for a beer!

PC: Cheers Gav!

G: Cheers Pete!

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